An interview with Imants Lancmanis, art historian and painter

My first memories of Rundāle Palace are from the beginning of the 80s and posing for a class photograph on the large staircase in the courtyard.

You mentioned the staircase quite precisely, because I can only imagine how Rastrelli felt when he realised that Latvia lacked suitable stone (as a material for stairs) and that wood had to be used instead! Clearly, one needed to get into the palace, but there was no material for the stairs! Of course, we had and still have limestone and travertine, but they are not suitable for fine architecture! This is the reason why brick, which was then plastered, or wood was used in our architecture both in Rastrelli's time and later! We probably wouldn't find many countries (one of which is Sweden!) where 18th-century manor houses were still built of wood. Until the end of the 18th century, no one considered it “improper” for a single-storey manor house to be made of wood! Wonderful witnesses of those times have been preserved in modern-day Latvia, for example, the most striking example – Ungurmuiža! I call Ungurmuiža a “hallucination” because it is unbelievable that the building has survived different times and events for nearly 280 years, and we can see it today, looking quite magnificent!

Another example in Zemgale, less ornate but significant, is Bērvircava. It is a two-storey building now, but at its foundation (the bottom part) is a single-storey manor house, most likely a log building from the end of the 17th century! It was built for the von der Howen family, who were the “most classic” enemies of the Biron family. Adding to the hatred between the families was the fact that the Birons built the magnificent Rundāle, while the von der Howens lived in a single-storey wooden building. It is plausible that this created certain complexes.

Two neighbours did not get along…

And how! The question was, of course, more political, but the misunderstandings of that time were often pathological and manifested in extreme actions. For example, Rundāle had another neighbour – at Bornsminde – von Schepping. Can you imagine that von Schepping never travelled to Jelgava through Rundāle, but along the poor roads on the right bank of the river? The reason was a certain phobia that Duke Biron might kidnap him – von Schepping – on the way and imprison him!

Did Rastrelli eventually come to terms with wood as a material for the stairs?

Yes, he both accepted it and lived with it! Wood is wood, but I think it was and still is quite a “heavy” matter for both Rastrelli and us. Specifically, there are seven external staircases in the palace courtyard! We replace them every ten or fifteen years! You cannot “stretch” them any further, even with professional wood treatment and impregnation! Nowadays, wood does not “withstand” the weather and natural processes; it simply rots. In Rastrelli's time, I assume it was even worse because there were no impregnation materials. I assume they used linseed oil, which, however, does not help much. At the beginning of the 19th century, some rather mediocre stone stairs were added to the palace, which we, in turn, demolished so that everything would be as it was in Rastrelli's time!

Could one say that you have experienced the replacement of at least four entire wooden staircases?

That could be so, but we don't replace all the stairs at once. It is a never-ending process – you replace one and have to start on the next! By the way, the stairs are the reason we got to know the Teterev family and the Teterev Foundation. In 1997, one of the staircases in the palace courtyard was in very poor condition – it was impossible to step on! Boris Teterev was horrified by it, and we explained that we were doing what we could, but there wasn't enough money. One could say that, thanks to the sad state of the stairs, the problem was noticed.

What wood do you use in the restoration? Pine, ash, oak…

Oak, no! It is a misconception that only oak is used for stairs; that is not the case! Softwoods are suitable for our stairs – spruce and pine, which we found in construction descriptions! Oak was used here and there during the construction of the palace for internal stairs, but they haven't survived, and all the current ones – both the original ones and the new ones – are made of softwood!

The Rastrelli surprise you mentioned is also surprising: so in those days, wood was acceptable as a finishing and furniture material, but not as a building material!

Of course, the floor and finishes were made of wood! The 18th century had a “great fondness for wooden wall panelling”, which was either carved in wood or, as can be seen in the Duke's bedroom, inlaid (similar to parquet, but on the walls). In a way, Rastrelli “loved” wood as a material, but it is not the best one to use for stairs.

Has anything been heard about the wooden parts of Rundāle Palace being burned for firewood due to a fuel shortage?

Perhaps something like that happened immediately after the war. When I arrived in Rundāle in 1964, there was nothing of the sort to be noticed. I do remember one thing very well: in many places in the first-floor galleries, piles of firewood were stacked. The disasters you describe occur during wars or revolutions, and Latvia has experienced that in its time!

Did you cooperate with local craftsmen and use local timber for the renovation of the stairs?

The wood was local, of the best possible quality! However, as I already said, even impregnation did not allow it to be used for longer than possible! The builders were also locals. I remember, however, there was one time when we got wood from abroad. We couldn't find black oak anywhere in Latvia, and the floor in the Duchess's dressing room is made of Spanish black oak. We were very lucky with the restoration and reproduction of the parquet and wall panels because these complex tasks were carried out for a long time by an excellent carpenter and woodcarver from Bauska Municipality, Aivars Students.

Speaking of the wood used in the construction of the palace (palaces), the most important thing is the material we do not see – namely, the wooden structures! I call that a real miracle. I regret that people do not see what is to be viewed in the palace attic! There, one can grasp and see what the high professionalism of a carpenter meant in the 18th century! Rundāle Palace was built slowly and “with difficulty”, facing various mishaps; in the construction documents, one can see squabbling, accusations, failure to meet deadlines... But! All the roof structures and ceilings were put up within one year! Moreover, the roof structure above every room is of a different type. One can rejoice and admire how they are designed and what good condition they are still in today! It is the work of great masters! In the attic, there is a series of small elements that look simply beautiful even where they cannot be seen! I think the masters liked to do their work beautifully! Of course, over the years, the structures have been repaired in places (in the 1880s) or supplemented; for example, the middle part of the central wing above the Duke's bedroom was rebuilt.

Lately, there have been quite active discussions about building with wood, which is supposedly in fashion, and then supposedly not…

It is difficult for me to speak about everyday or private construction; in restoration practice, we did not notice problems or obstacles in using wood. Admittedly, the buildings that were built around the palace were not made of wood. I think that wood is also a certain “luxury item” in construction today because all the substitutes are cheaper and more widely available. For example, in one of the palace staff offices, we needed to replace the furniture. We came across many things that were seemingly of high quality, but it was hard to find real wooden furniture. We did find some, but the entrepreneur remarked: I would gladly make it, but there are no craftsmen left, they have left. That was the time when carpenters and joiners were leaving.

I do believe, however, that we in Latvia have been famous for excellent masters of these trades. But – if we are talking about Rundāle – almost all the carpentry and joinery work in the construction was done by Russian masters. Biron commanded, and they came. Even later, in the construction of manors, “travelling Russian carpenters” are mentioned in various writings.

The reason for this is simple – many Russian nobles earned extra money in this way by sending their serfs, craft masters, to earn money. In Rundāle, some of the carpenters were from the Imperial Building Office in Saint Petersburg, while others were hired serf artels. It happened that some nobleman would send his “brigade” (even 100 people), all of whom were illiterate, and all of whom were excellent at working with carpentry tools! I would call the practical knowledge of these people excellent! When the palace was already finished, during the time of Duke Peter, something was repaired, and in the accounts, we see references to Russische Zimmerleute (Russian carpenters). If one can put it this way, they travelled or wandered through the empire and were cheap and good! I think the nobles earned quite a bit from the carpenters' work because the serfs had to take their earnings home! Latvian masters can also be noticed; in the documents, names like Jānis and Krišjānis appear.

Wooden manors and their renovation today. Is finance the only obstacle?

Renovation proceeds with difficulty because more or less a portion of the structures is damaged. That was also the case at Ungurmuiža, where work went quite hard, but – we were lucky with good masters and good advice! We managed to save all the old, replacing only a series of bottom logs. Renovation was an expensive undertaking! If a building is old and the renovation has to be carried out by a private individual without support from European funds, it is quite complicated!

The situation with manors in Latvia is sad. This is a process that can be attributed to the 20th and 21st centuries in general, and it will gradually affect all the old beautiful Europe. To what extent can a person maintain a palace or a manor as their family property or a house to live in? It is becoming more and more expensive, and people do not want to sacrifice their time and life for it. In the future, I foresee a big and difficult crisis in this regard. In Latvia, everything is complicated by the general circumstance that people have little money. Those who have inherited an older building have virtually no funds, and those who have bought them plan to sell them on... There are some great examples where people who have money act purposefully, for example, Rūmene Manor or Mālpils Manor. That is wonderful, but those are separate commendable examples!

A great deal of work, a lot of time, large finances. If these three things are missing, there will be no result, is that the conclusion?

Unfortunately, that has been the case in all eras. There are not many fanatics in Latvia who would want to restore anything. Such a situation can also be observed in Germany and France. It happened that young energetic people bought a beautiful palace, mortgaged it, and got to the next one... How this adventure ended, I do not know, but... when investing money, one must think about whether it will be possible to never expect a profit from this investment! There are not so many people in Latvia rich enough to afford not to think about it! Consequently, when starting the renovation of a manor or palace, one must think about what will be located there, what will happen. Of course, one can find a specific way (niche) in which to operate, and it can be successful! For example, Liepupe. There, the manor owners have a good development plan, good clients, and Riga is not far away. The distance from the national centre determines the failures of Ēdole, because a beautiful, romantic place, but far from the centre, is empty - what will you do there?

Similar to talking about the territorial reform, in the case of the old manors, a lot also depends on the distance to Riga or…

That is happening and will continue to happen! What is left? Green Latvia, which it would be worth presenting to the world as something green and nice, but... Greenery must be well-kept, there must be roads, tended forests, there cannot be as many overgrown places as there are now, there must be a cultural offering! There is so much that is unsightly that cannot be presented or shown to anyone! Socialism destroyed the foundations of the functioning of private property, and returning back is difficult. Often, a person loses the desire to keep things tidy because everything is fine on their territory, but further on, in the neighbour's yard, there is an abandoned area with old machinery or tyres. Unfortunately, one can see such sights in the countryside quite often. Latvia still has to recover! Of course, we must think about the levers to activate, because there is still too little money in circulation in Latvia, and there will not be that much money from Europe anymore either. How to earn and what to do so that there is more of it? I optimistically believe that everything will sort itself out, though not as quickly as many of us would like.

What are you doing now?

Books and painting are the main things I occupy myself with. It is necessary to complete Volume III of the Rundāle Palace monograph (on restoration), and there is work on catalogues and books about manors. I am even afraid to mention everything planned! And – as I mentioned – painting!

(Photographs by Gunita Kulmane, Rundāle Palace Museum, and zemeunvalsts.lv have been used)